Logitech Wingman Force 3D (963223-0403)

Rating:
Summary: Questionable build quality, but the price is right...
Review: A few years back you'd pay $150 for a force feedback joystick. Those were the days when serious flight simmers paid top dollar for the best quality they could get. Unfortunately, those days are gone, and force feedback joysticks (along with quality joysticks in general) are fewer in number than ever, and not as good as they used to be. Now that MS has stopped making Sidewinder products, and Logitech replaced their older (and better) Wingman Force stick with this one, there's not a lot of choice left if you want force feedback. On the positive side, the price is now much lower than it used to be.

I'm on my second one of these sticks... the first one I got from Amazon had a defective motor in it. Other than that, the initial feel of this stick is actually pretty good - better than I expected, based on the other reviews - and if I hadn't gotten a defective unit I'd probably give it a higher score. But taken with some of the other problems I've read about here, I have to think there are probably some real quality control issues with this stick. I can say definitively that this model is not nearly as solid as either MS's last force feedback stick or Logitech's previous model. But both of those sticks were built like tanks. At least the buttons all feel really nice on the Force 3D; solid but clicky and springy, and with a nice throttle with the perfect amount of resistance. The hat switch works well too - much better than my old Sidewinder Precision Pro (and it's concave now, just to update what an earlier reviewer said about previous revisions).

As for the force feedback itself, it's not the best but it's not bad either. If you're a flight simmer you will probably appreciate having force feedback - this is not really a stick that's intended for other types of games. It's a flight stick, and it does add a lot to the realism of flight sims to be able to feel things like ground bumps and aerodynamic forces on your airplanes (some sims even let you feel things like turbulence). The force effects by default are strong enough, but you can make them stronger if you want to (some people have complained that the effects feel weak, but you can really crank them up with Logitech's included utility). It can be surprisingly forceful given how light the stick is. That said, the motors do feel like they're straining if you really crank it up.

Centering is always an issue with force feedback sticks because they rely on the motors for centering rather than springs. Some people prefer a standard stick for this reason. Unlike some older force feedback sticks that use a combination of cables and motors for centering and other non-force effects, this stick seems to use only motors, so the centering doesn't feel very smooth - it feels very digital, like the motors have a certain number of levels (which feel like detents) where they will allow the stick to rest. It's hard to explain, but the result is if you push the stick in one direction, it's almost like it "clicks" as it goes through the various levels of resistance from the motors. This is constant and there's no way around it; you just have to get used to it. It's not that hard, but it's definitely a different feel from an analog stick that uses cables and springs for centering.

Some have complained about stick sensitivity with this model; I haven't had a problem in Flight Simulator 2004, which is all I've used it for. Even with the loose "dead spot" when centered, if you just take the stick sensitivity down a couple notches in the game settings it's absolutely fine. The centering right in the middle is definitely a bit loose but it doesn't seem to really matter much, and it's a common issue with most force feedback joysticks.

Overall, I'm glad I purchased mine, but I would probably have rather paid more for a better stick. I feel this is priced about what it's worth. Whether you want force feedback or not is a question in itself; if you're not sure, this is a good stick to test out, being as cheap as it is.

Rating:
Summary: Questionable build quality, but the price is right...
Review: A few years back you'd pay $150 for a force feedback joystick. Those were the days when serious flight simmers paid top dollar for the best quality they could get. Unfortunately, those days are gone, and force feedback joysticks (along with quality joysticks in general) are fewer in number than ever, and not as good as they used to be. Now that MS has stopped making Sidewinder products, and Logitech replaced their older (and better) Wingman Force stick with this one, there's not a lot of choice left if you want force feedback. On the positive side, the price is now much lower than it used to be.

I'm on my second one of these sticks... the first one I got from Amazon had a defective motor in it. Other than that, the initial feel of this stick is actually pretty good - better than I expected, based on the other reviews - and if I hadn't gotten a defective unit I'd probably give it a higher score. But taken with some of the other problems I've read about here, I have to think there are probably some real quality control issues with this stick. I can say definitively that this model is not nearly as solid as either MS's last force feedback stick or Logitech's previous model. But both of those sticks were built like tanks. At least the buttons all feel really nice on the Force 3D; solid but clicky and springy, and with a nice throttle with the perfect amount of resistance. The hat switch works well too - much better than my old Sidewinder Precision Pro (and it's concave now, just to update what an earlier reviewer said about previous revisions).

As for the force feedback itself, it's not the best but it's not bad either. If you're a flight simmer you will probably appreciate having force feedback - this is not really a stick that's intended for other types of games. It's a flight stick, and it does add a lot to the realism of flight sims to be able to feel things like ground bumps and aerodynamic forces on your airplanes (some sims even let you feel things like turbulence). The force effects by default are strong enough, but you can make them stronger if you want to (some people have complained that the effects feel weak, but you can really crank them up with Logitech's included utility). It can be surprisingly forceful given how light the stick is. That said, the motors do feel like they're straining if you really crank it up.

Centering is always an issue with force feedback sticks because they rely on the motors for centering rather than springs. Some people prefer a standard stick for this reason. Unlike some older force feedback sticks that use a combination of cables and motors for centering and other non-force effects, this stick seems to use only motors, so the centering doesn't feel very smooth - it feels very digital, like the motors have a certain number of levels (which feel like detents) where they will allow the stick to rest. It's hard to explain, but the result is if you push the stick in one direction, it's almost like it "clicks" as it goes through the various levels of resistance from the motors. This is constant and there's no way around it; you just have to get used to it. It's not that hard, but it's definitely a different feel from an analog stick that uses cables and springs for centering.

Some have complained about stick sensitivity with this model; I haven't had a problem in Flight Simulator 2004, which is all I've used it for. Even with the loose "dead spot" when centered, if you just take the stick sensitivity down a couple notches in the game settings it's absolutely fine. The centering right in the middle is definitely a bit loose but it doesn't seem to really matter much, and it's a common issue with most force feedback joysticks.

Overall, I'm glad I purchased mine, but I would probably have rather paid more for a better stick. I feel this is priced about what it's worth. Whether you want force feedback or not is a question in itself; if you're not sure, this is a good stick to test out, being as cheap as it is.

Rating:
Summary: A very good product
Review: Good stick overall. Button layout is excellent, especially the buttons around the hat - you can quickly hit them with the thumb. I love the force feedback and will never use a non-feedback stick. Stick feels comfortable in my hand. I have taken to placing the computer box under the table between my legs and taping the stick to the top of the box with masking tape. This holds it down and puts the stick about where it would be on a real plane (though this prevents me from using rudder pedals).

That said, the stick is not perfect. My gripes:

1) Durability/Quality: I am a hard on the stick and I go through two of these sticks a year. After about six months of sim-flying the stick develops what I call "rudder flutter", in which the rudder (which is activated by turning the stick) flickers to the left repeatedly. (I am right handed and tend to twist the stick counter-clockwise.) There is no strong yawing left of the airplane when this happens, but the rudder flapping in the virtual "breeze" sucks energy out of the plane. Now, my one computer game is Red Baron 3d, which is a World War I combat simulator. The planes are pretty realistic and, as such, they tend to be underpowered to begin with; the lost energy means that I don't have as much speed to do the various aerial maneuvers necessary to dogfighting. In conclusion, "rudder flutter" = death. Neither recalibration nor reprogramming nor reloading solves the problem; I just have to buy a new stick. I would gladly pay more for a sturdier product without the "rudder flutter" bug.

2) Buttons: the buttons are responsive, clicky and springy, and comfortably situated. The problem is, there aren't near enough of them. Visibility is crucial to combat sims, and the game I play requires a lot of "views". That means a lot of buttons, and a lot of buttons is something the Wingman doesn't have. Seven is more than none, but it's less than ten. And I need ten at least.

The Wingman 3D is a good stick, and since Microsoft stopped making the Sidewinder it's the best out there. But I'd like it more if it were sturdier and had more buttons, that's all.

Rating:
Summary: Decent with practise
Review: I've had this stick for nearly 9 mos, and used it very little at first, preferring my non-ff logitech stick because this one seemed too out of control. After getting bored with a certain game, I took up this stick as a challenge, and am pleased with the results.

The FF is ok, nothing special, but once you have it set up with your comp and your game (this took quite a while and a lot of experimentation), I won't go back to non-ff. I actually get a feel for when my plane will stall, which is so necessary in flight sim games (been playing il2 FB). The on-stick throttle is pretty good and is not loose.

My biggest problem with this product is that the center spring doesn't really center, and seems to be in the ++ section a bit (upper right), which sometimes causes my plane to roll or pitch forward.

All in all, ok stick for the money. FF is great, but I'll be heading toward a better, more expensive stick after this.

Rating:
Summary: a dissapointed customer
Review: My problem with this joystick is that the center is very loose and wobbly. I bought it to use with x-plane which does not make use of the force feedback. I found no way to tighten the centering spring manually, and the software that comes with the joystick implies you can tighten it via the software interface, but this did not work for me. Perhaps it was because x-plane does not make use of this option.

In any event, it might be a fine product for other games, but it will be in my garbage can as soon as as my new, alternate-brand joystick arrives.

Rating:
Summary: Great force feedback but horrible centering
Review: So I read a bunch of reviews on here and gave this stick a try for Microsoft Flight Sim 2004 [the only "game" I "play"]. Installation was a breeze. The force feedback was excellent, and simulated well the forces on the control surfaces! I had a horrible time trying to get a little simulated Cessna to fly level for instance - the centering on the stick is terrible, even after playing around with sensitivities and the null zone galore. After 30 minutes of a short flight, my wrist was aching. Trying to keep pitch was pretty difficult too, especially while landing. I must add that I'm a southpaw, and using a right-handed stick was probably a bad idea to start with. I don't know if the experience would be different for right-handers. Anyway, I decided not to risk carpal-tunnel, and it's on its way back to Amazon.

Rating:
Summary: Force feedback is fun!
Review: This joystick is definitely a lot of fun. I never had a force feedback joystick before, but I certainly will not go back to the plain variety after this. I got it mainly to play MS Flight Simulator, and it works great with that, although I had to modify the default button assignments to make it more logical layout wise. It is fairly easy to do. The design is ergonomical and looks good. The number of buttons is ok for most games. The accompanying Wingman software is of questionable value, but you do not have to run it to use the joystick in games, despite what Logitech's instructions say.

The feedback effects themselves are great. They are powerful enough, unless you want to play an armwrestling match with your joystick. It really does give another level of reality to the games. It was quite a shock to see the stick move on its own the first time when the instructor was flying the airplane in Flight Sim. The centering does have a different feel than simple mechanical joysticks, but it is pretty easy to get used to it. A fun toy!

Rating:
Summary: Force Feedback is Spooky!
Review: Usually, features of game controllers are intended to make games easier to play. Force Feedback effects, however, are there to give the player a hard time - make his life difficult by applying countering forces to aileron movement, and shaking like a jackhammer when you fire your machine guns.

My ol' faithful stick is a Saitek Cyborg 3d.. a very sturdy, non FF piece of kit with a good strong snap to center. I fancied a change of scene, without losing much money, and the Wingman Force 3d seemed to fit the bill. Fortunately, my fears of RSI and sprained wrists were allayed when, whilst using the test program during installation, I found out that the forces the stick can generate were actually fairly moderate. Whilst its certainly strong enough to give you a good feedback, its no arm wrestler.

After being used to the Saitek, the 'slack' feel of the un-forced Wingman was a bit of a shock. The default 'return to center' forces dont work anywhere near as well as a good old fashioned spring, especially near the center point, where the motors seem to have less leverage. The result is that the joystick doesn't always snap to center too well. Its fairly easy to 'feel' the center of the joystick whilst playing though, so once your used to it, you actually feel the benefit of a much lighter stickload.

My main critisism of the Force effects is that they tend to be a little bit 'clunky' in feel.. the action is perhaps not as smooth as a sprung stick. This is something of a feature of FF joysticks though.. they can never compete with the 'smoothness' of a mechanical spring. Its something you soon get fairly used to, and in fact tend to forget about once your having fun wrestling the stick forces around.

So far, I've tested the stick with Edge of Chaos, Starlancer, Il2 Sturmovik, CFS3 and the Freespace2 game that was packaged with the stick (not the retail version I might add). Once a few settings are tweaked, the stick works well with the 'space' sim games, where there is little need for proper force feedback until you fire your guns or crash into something. It certainly adds to the excitement and immersion to 'feel' when something explodes nearby. Sturmovik also performed well, with stalls and takeoffs/landings feeling very realistic and firing cannons gets very satisfying indeed. CFS3 however, has issues; there seems to be a half second delay in the feedback forces, so if you let go of the stick after a roll it will oscillate indefinately hard left and hard right.. not good for the stick OR your virtual airplane. Being a generally buggy, resource hungry peice of software, CFS3 is probably at fault here though, not the Wingman.

Setting up the stick was painless, quick and easy. The aforementioned test program is an excellent idea too. Ive not used the programming software yet, but I tend to stick with the default in-game setup anyway (I prefer to take the programming software off the task bar for a few extra fps). There aren't as many buttons on the WMF3D as many joysticks.. but theres all you need for most flight sims. The throttle is OK too, but doesn't really offer as fine a control as the one on the Saitek, so formation flying/inflight refuelling might cause some problems.

I worry about durability and longevity.. its not as well made as my Saitek, but if it lasts 12 months it will probably have been worth it.

To summarize, if you want force-feedback at a resonable price.. the WingMan Force is a good solution. Its pretty obvious though that with current technology Force Feedback comes at a cost in precision. I'll certainly be keeping my old Saitek stick nearby for playing non-Force games, but where its available FF is such great fun I'll certainly use the Wingman.

Rating:
Summary: Logitec makes another great product!
Review: When shopping for joysticks, I find it can be very difficult searching for just the right one that will work for you. Just as equally difficult is finding one that isn't overpriced garbage. Even when you do finally find one that suits you, you find many drawbacks in its design, such as poor website support, lack of game profiles, bad software design and overwise. The silution to all of these difficult questions when deciding on which joystick to purchase is simple...The Logictec Wingman Force 3D, hands down! This joystick is the answer to all my prayers. The forcefeed back is just as good as the Microsoft versions at HALF the price! The control is wonderful, crisp and clear without those pesky twitches when the stick is in a neutral position like some of the lower quality joysticks I've seen in the past. The web support is second to none, offering the latest game profiles, software upgrades and patches which is one of the main reasons I returned my Microsoft forcefeedback for this little beauty. One last little perk when comparing this joystick to its competitors is versatility; although they don't advertise left and right hand playablility, using this joystick left-handed is pretty comfortable which gives it another perk when you absolutely demand both mouse and joystick use. Enjoy this great joystick and happy gaming!