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1421: The Year China Discovered America

1421: The Year China Discovered America

List Price: $27.95
Your Price: $18.45
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Rating: 4 stars
Summary: Good Read, Thought Provoking, Who Knows if its True....
Review: First and foremost, 1421 is a great read. This book is interesting, written with passion, and will make you think.

I felt the best thing about 1421 is the job it did on why Zheng He and the Ming Dynasty fleets were shut down, dismantled, and records destroyed. Menzies answers this question much better than Louise Levathes in "When China Ruled the Seas" and Tsai in the new biography of Zhu Di. Menzies talks not only about the monetary and human costs of maintaining such a large fleet, but more importantly ties it into the Mandate of Heaven and the Dynastic cycle. Menzies shows how something like a lightening strike and a fire can be seen as losing the Mandate of Heaven and thus a reason to change your ways.

Now its pretty much undisputed that the Chinese made it to the Southern Tip of Africa. This is in the standard history books, the question is did they reach north and south america and australia like Gavin Menzies asserts.

The bottom line is based on one book, we can not answer this question. Menzies makes a strong case, a case that makes you think, but its not a slam dunk or a closed case. I think it will take more time and more historians and archeologists to answer that question.

The evidence is interesting. Plants in north and south america that came from Asia, language, DNA, animals. Almost a columbian exchange from China. The discussion of maps, wrecked ships, journals, Menzies knowledge of the seas. All make for a good case, but I need more.

I highly recommend this book. Think about its conclusions and let's see where this all leads. I also recommend reading this along with Blue Latitudes by Tony Horwitz which is about Captain Cook. Think about all that Zheng He and Cook accomplished. Two incredible, larger than life, and all to human heroes of history.

Rating: 5 stars
Summary: The most revolutionary book I've read!
Review: Gavin Menzes spent his life in the British navy, retiring as a submarine captain who journeyed the same courses set by the fifteenth century Chinese in their treasure fleets. Unlike others, I believe his theory about these treasure fleets predating by centuries the European "discoveries" of the Americas, Antartica and Australia. I believe that we in the West are guilty of very stupid Eurocentrism by continuing to maintain in the face of worldwide evidence to the contrary the Columbus and Cook myth of initial "discovery".

I fully admit that I can't read a navigation chart, have no firsthand knowledge of sailing and wouldn't know which end of a sextant is which but his extraordinary amassing of hard evidence is, to my mind, irrefutable and as such he has written a mamothly explosive book!

The question that should haunt the reader through Menzie's unfolding tale is why we weren't told earlier-why did I spend so many years drinking at the fountain of English, Spanish, Dutch and Portugese "discovery" and the answer seems to be that, as Menzies accurately points out, nobody has had the practical knowledge of ancient map reading to formulate an alternative theory. Historians of course have tremendous literary skills but how many historians can read and interpret ancient navigation charts? The information in this book has always been there but nobody put the scattered pieces together. Menzies' greatness is that he had the knowledge to gather, what to others were unimportant pieces of trivia, and out of that mess to form a truly revolutionary story-at least to my clouded Western eyes.

Regardless of my poor ability to write a decent comment you owe it to yourself to read this fabulous book-it will confound you, interest you and eventually excite you as few other books ever have.

Rating: 1 stars
Summary: Agreed the book is overly rough on 15th century Europe
Review: I had previously seen museum gun collections showing dates of 1300's for many European guns. Therefore, I knew outright that the fellow writing this book was obviously all wrong about Europe being gun-free in the first few decades of the 1400's. And during the 1420's there was a truly-fine Muslim civilaztion in Spain as well as Byzantium's accomplishments (which also included amazing architecture and a strong, literate government with many different bureaus more than a match for China's government at the same time). Europe was often an actually outstanding and advanced place to live in the ealy 1400's contrary to all the author tries to make us believe otherwise. Why this man wrongly wants us to believe China was such a better place shows how either badly informed or sneaky or deranged he is (or all three).

Rating: 4 stars
Summary: The Fate of Chinese and Ming Dynasty
Review: This book tells us some facts about which few occidentals know and the Chinese deem as ¡°of course¡±. But, saying that the Chinese first found the America and even circumnavigated the globe, it seems stretching the imagination too far; that is, there is no enough solid evidence to support this hypothesis. Furthermore, to impose all the blames on the Confucian officials who insisted on stopping the voyages is also unfair. Serials of contingencies and necessities lead to this calamitous mistake that the modern Chinese still feel its bitterness.
The Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644) was the last ethnic Han Chinese dynasty to rule the empire. The former dynasty, which was called Yuan Dynasty, was founded by Mongols; also, it is the first time that the whole China was conquered by foreigners. The Ming¡¯s successive dynasty is Manchu Qing Dynasty, the second and last dynasty ruled by a minority regime. What humiliated the Chinese most is that at that time both the Mongols and the Manchu were despised as barbarians. In the movie, ¡°the Lord of the Rings: the Return of the King¡±, one scenario impresses me deeply: Denethor, the steward of Gondor, despairingly and helplessly panicked at the orcs that surrounded his city. The mood of Ming¡¯s emperors was the same as Dethenor¡¯s. The Confucian official persuaded the emperor to give up the voyage not only because of wasting resource but also because of the emerging threat on the northern border. The Mongols who had been expelled were rallying and stirring again. There was no exaggeration. Although the Great Wall was rebuilt and consolidated, about twenty years later, the Beijing city was raided and pillaged again by Mongols and the Yingzong Emperor, the grandson of Zhu Di who was the patron of Zheng He armada, was captured by Mongols. Although finally the invading Mongols were routed again, a series of disasters that at last led to the collapse of Ming Dynasty began to befall.
Because of the sudden withdraw of the great navy of Ming, there is a vast area of marine power vacuum along the prosperous, peaceful and affluent southeast coast of China, which was coveted by marauders for a long time. In 16th century, driven by unknown evils, gangs of the Japanese pirates, like Vikings in Europe, stormed out of their dens and looted all of the important cities of the Chinese east coast. They killed, burned, robbed and left the whole city ruined after they passed. At first the Ming people were appalled by these barbarians, but for tens of years, they fought manfully and finally got rid of these buccaneers from their homelands. Nevertheless, the economy of the whole east coast was undermined and it would never recover until the fall of the Ming Dynasty. If the formidable navy of Ming was kept and could forestall the pirates, the tragedy could never happen.
But the Japanese would not rest. In Shenzong Emperor period, one Japanese overlord united most of the tribes and he felt that he had some ability to show his muscles. This time the prey is Korean. The relation between Ming Dynasty and Korean was somewhat like that between Gondor and Rohan. When the despaired King of Korean asked for help the Ming Emperor had no choice but sent one army to the Korean peninsula to resist the Japanese invaders. After seven years of exhaustive struggle the Japanese was forced out Korean. But the treasury of Ming was depleted.
There was no opportunity for the Ming to have a gasp. In the last forty years of Ming Dynasty all of the factors that could cause the empire to collapse gathered: the mismanagement of government, the inept emperors, the corruption of officials, the unrestrained eunuch power, the internecine among different court cabals and the unfortunate natural catastrophe. Continuous burdens were imposed upon the peasants who had already been taxed to the bone. The bankrupted peasants became vagabonds and then became rebels.
The Manchu were always keeping their eyes on the Ming sleeplessly. For a long time, in the northeast of China, as subjects of Ming, the Manchu craved for the affluence and glory of Ming and waited for their opportunities. Now they thought that it was the proper time to rebel. So the thirty years of ceaseless and ruthless attacks began. The strength of Ming was finally sapped. The whole empire was swirled by the rebels. When the rebellious peasants occupied the capital Beijing, in the turmoil, the Manchu broke the Great Wall and finally took over the whole country.
The Manchu founded a new dynasty, Qing Dynasty, which is the most cursed by the modern Chinese. And for nearly three hundred years the majority Han people would be ruled by the minority Manchu whose population is no more than one percent of the whole population. The Koreans sympathized the Han people and despised the Manchu as heathens. They claimed that they would be the successor of the real Chinese culture. In fact, the culture of Manchu was so wretched that even they themselves felt self-contempt and had no choice but accepted the whole culture of Han people. As a consequence the Manchu tried their best to be Chinese and stubbornly refused to do any reform in order to cater to the conservatives and to insure their reign. So the Chinese was totally out of the track of worldwide development.
When the Manchu¡¯s reign was finally overthrown by the furious Han people in 1911, the Chinese found that their country had become one of the poorest in the world. The recent three hundred years was like a nightmare. And the Ming Dynasty seems so distant and almost like a dream. The pivotal point of their fate is exact the moment when their ancestors destroyed Zheng He¡¯s magnificent navy.
When the first Chinese spaceship was launched and carried one astronaut to explore the outer space in 2003, there are many cries around the country: why we wasted so much money on this kind of project? There was one answer that really struck the nerves of the Chinese: we just do not want our descendants to complain us later as we complain our ancestors now.

Rating: 1 stars
Summary: About what this book says about Henry V
Review: Menzies claims that in 1421 English King Henry V could not outfit his soldiers with guns. In the book "Gunpowder" by Jack Kelly it is stated that in 1415 Henry V bombed an aea of France with cannons! Clearly if Henry's army had cannons they surely had muskets. Menzies is just plain wrong in his over-glorification of early 15th century China compared to early 15th century Europe.

Rating: 1 stars
Summary: Misinformative about Europe in the early 15th century
Review: Menzies makes several foolish claims, like that Europe was so technologically far behind China in 1421. For your info Menzies, the Byzantines of Europe had Greek Fire, a weapon that could enable flames to travel on water. It was this instrument that kept Muslims from invading Europe for centuries and it was far superior to anything the Chinese ever invented. Menzies also claims that the European armies of 1421 had no guns. Couldn't be further from the truth on this one. By 1390 Europeans from one end of Europe to the other were getting outfitted not only with guns but canons too. And Europe was already flatout in the Renaissance in 1421, they weren't on the eve of it as Menzies ridiculously claims.

Rating: 5 stars
Summary: A fascinating book to read
Review: I picked up the book from London during a trip. I was looking for something entertaining to read, and I found my choices, Stupid White Men and 1421, are the ones I was looking for.

Gavin Menzis basically collected the facts and analyzed through his knowledge and experiences as a modern day navigator. There are many facts about Chinese fleets in Ming Dynasty already, and Mr Menzis tries to stretch a little. Well, not as scientific or scholarly as we want, but it is really a challenge to scholars on this subject. It gives the world a chance to reexamine the missing link of the great fleets and their accomplishments. Hope the academic world can do more research work on the details of the treasure boats which disappeared from official records for so long. It really deserves more today.

A few facts from other sources:
--- Chinese visited Aferica even before 1421. There are maps about Africa in Chinese library dated back to 1389.
--- There are records about Austrilia long before 1421.

The 28, 000+ strong fleet certainly did more than just fetching some spices for the royal court. Remember they had been sailing for at least seven times.

Menzis is doing many of the reasearch work by himself. The dispute or support from academic world will help the effort in detailing the history of Zheng He's fleet, and we are happy to see other new charts about the routes.

In the meantime, enjoying the fascinating story and well-connected imagination of the giant fleets during the two-year voyage.

Rating: 4 stars
Summary: regain power
Review: China had great power for 4000 years.This book prove this history. China are now regaing power, which would lead to stability in East Asia, because East Asian itself is Chinese world. Historically, Korea and Japan as well as Taiwan was China(We are kind of brother!) 21 century will become the Chinese century.

Rating: 5 stars
Summary: Manchurian and Han culture
Review: Actually, since the Jin (Golden) dynasty, the Nuzhen(Manchurian) people already adopt Han culture and the founder of the Qing dynasty was a general of the Ming dynasty.

Mongols are not foreigners, they are part of Chinese since the Tang dynasty. The Khitan (Cathay) people are ancestors of Mongols and they are considered to be Chinese.

Rating: 4 stars
Summary: Fact and fiction slightly blurred
Review: As I learned so many new things from this book and I found it insightful on aspects of Chinese history I am giving it A for effort. I do agree based on other good Amazon reviewers that the book contains many errors and needs corroboration or dismissal on certain points. Unfortunately I can't tell the facts from the fiction though the main theses is interesting and deserves credit.

Facts: Some pretty good maps of the world with accurate details did probably exist before Europeans officially discovered those continents - some European navigators possibly used them.

I am reasonably convinced that Chickens came to the new world from Asia based on this book but when - Pre Columbian? Need to know more.

Chinese junks were truly extraordinary and China was a world Superpower until around 1700.

What this book most convinces me of is that the claims that Europeans were the first to get here or there is patent nonsense though it was probably trumpetted for the sake of colonial hegemony. Many continents were colonised by "first peoples" and then recolonised on subsequent occasions, mainly by seafaring nations like the Maoris. Who was responsible for the good maps found in pre naval Europe? Though the Chinese are the best candidates, I think it seems a disaster they wrote so little of it and what little they did was destroyed. This puts the Chinese beyond the pale of credibility as a civilisation though it seems to be true. I think when I've read some of the other books I will be more convinced.

I would really have liked some pictures of the junks with more information about appearance and construction.

Fiction or moot points that I'm not sure about:

Other reviewers have pointed out some of the errors.

Here are three I've identified.

1. Mylodon's were probably extinct in the 1420s, carbon dating reveals they disappeared way before this period though the story of them being discovered by sailors is certainly entertaining. I think this fact could be disputed. The Falkland Island dogs related to Chinese edible dogs? Extraordinary, need to know more.

2. A document from the 1420s at Cambridge showing animals and cultures of the world could not show Sikhs as Sikhism is post 1500.

3. The trinity of Buddhism is Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, not Buddha, Dhamma and meditation.

I find it problematic that so much seems to have been done in just 3 years or less 1421-1423 after which it was Kaput. Darwing took 5 years and then a lifetime to put his ideas together. As Menzies himself explains, the Chinese probably got to the Americas before the 1420s and any cultural evolution took place in S. America over decades (The Chinese monk apparently reached S. America in the 5th Century CE). The time frames need a bit more explanation.

The historical contexts supplied by Menzies e.g. about the Portuguese are wonderful. What if the Chinese had not destroyed their navy? I am now reasonably assured that Chinese probably got to Australia and many other parts of the world. From the Zoological and Botanical vantages I want to know more. I look forward to reading similar books to work out how much of this book can be taken seriously.

I cannot easily know of the truths about Menzies claims of various Chinese navigators and their exact itinaries.

I belive Mr Menzies as a navigator and he makes sailing round the world sound so simple, based on stars, the sun or compass and currents that seem to waft you from one place to another.

It is well written with Menzies' wife's money paying for so much research. He has voiced some powerful hidden scholarship that scholars responsible have hitherto hid under a barrel. I think this book is an accomplishment of enormous effort and the author deserves congratulations despite the books' flaws.


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